Subtitle priority 2.6.0

[SubJunk]

So if you are an English speaker

But i'm not

It is only the default for the English language

[squadjot]

It is only the default for the English language

Is it me or.. =S - YES, the audio is english.. ,and then i want subs!
And with the default setup, in most cases i will never get any subs at all. Because YES from 99% of the movie files capable of having tagged lang/subs,will have the lang tagged as eng

so... it will never get to *,und , cause eng, off will almost be the case every time.

[ExSport]

So what is the problem to change these defaults?
You can't make default settings which will fit to all. It is possible to replace default english with the language of UMS GUI but again, it will not fit to all because GUI don't include some translations or easily some users don't use GUI in native language (like me) so my manually set native language is CZE but from GUI it seems it is ENG. Again, it doesn't fit to all.
I have videos with 4 embedded subs and with another 3 external subs. Which one should be loaded? Because of that there is AUDIO/SUB preference.
OK, file has 3 embedded subs and one external one. Not all the people want to play this external file but the preferred one. Sometimes you forget some external subs which you don't want to load or only in case of problems of embeded ones like corrupted diactrics or bad timing. Or external subs are only for comments. I don't want to read discussion with the director or actors because UMS will load external file not respecting, violating my preference set.
It is hard to make it ok with all. Take it as you are only one what want some behavior which doesn't respect others
When talking about my person. I expect subs will be loaded depending on my preference and any other behavior is not logical for me so I will start complain in forums why german external subtitles are loaded when I want them off or in czech or english as I stated in preference? Users expects that this logic will work so it is not good to make exceptions.
It is ok to make some wizzard when UMS is installed and upon it set the correct preferences. It is also ok to read the manual when people are installing new TV, new SW.
If people will install some software and will never open GUI to see what it offer in settings, their fault. They can't complain why all folders are shared, where they can change it...it is so easy. Open GUI and open eyes
There is a virtual fight between me and you. You want preferred external file in any occasion avoiding everything. Me, I want to set my own logical preference and let UMS correctly load the right one. Not the external one which I copied there for 3D movie but when I am watching it in 2D, I don't wand 3D subs or subs for my friend which is foreigner or that subs are in my native language but want them to be loaded only manually, via TRANSCODE folder, when needed.
UMS is not VLC. Many times VLC loaded wrong subs for me or subs when I don't want them so I was forced to manually disable them. On PC it is easy but not on TV. You can't change subs via remote, you have to do it manually via TRANSCODE folder what is not user friendly. Only my opinion
Capture closed

[SubJunk]

My point was that it is only the default setting for users who have UMS running in English. Users running UMS in a different language will see different default values.

[squadjot]

My point was that it is only the default setting for users who have UMS running in English. Users running UMS in a different language will see different default values.

Oh..ok!, i didnt know! i always choose english langue in ANY gui, cause imo translations just confuse me more than it helps.

Ahhh - Shooot!.. where does it say that. (somewhere in the manual :;D) ???

[squadjot]

UMS is not VLC

You KNOW when i refer to VLC, i refer to the way VLC uses subtitle logic.. you also know you >dont'< have to tell me VLC is not UMS. Still the user experience, when it comes to handling subtitles can very well be compared. It's the same thing you do.. start a file,.. and you want subs.

ExSport..FINE do you have afile with 4 embedded and 3 external (god knows why.. (dont tell me))..
But why won't you realize that this is NOT the norm.
ExSport, i basically agree with you on almost everything, but the you say that i dont "respect needs of others" (thats how i interpret it).. but i disagree, that's EXACTLY my worries, i respect new users, AND "old/advanced" users with my approach.

Ok so to get ext untagged SRT's, you would as newbie, need to:
#1 realize that you a have subtitle problem related to a priority syntax
#2 Have to read up on, AND understand that

Code: Select all

*,und

would be the SRT option you'd need. (nobody even now what "und" means..which refers to common term code lingo undefined)

Where is this even obviously stated for anyone/newbies (you say open GUI and open eyes) <-- In the end -- why read up on something you dont need?!!

Why does it all has to be so complicated?..it should be those (fewer) with "advanced" sub/lang needs, that would have to insert a priority syntax..not all us mortals..

Despite i now know that subtitle/lang priority are affected by GUI language, my opinion about the user experience part of it is unchanged (here reffing to VLC, or any other media player)

[SubJunk]

I would just like to say in general for those reading this thread: we can't read a user's mind, there are lots of times when the user might want English audio with English subtitles, and other users want the opposite. Also release groups are really slack at setting language tags on their files so even the files themselves are inconsistent in that respect, making anything a programmer can do a "best guess". For example with anime releases, sometimes the groups set the subtitle language to what it is, but sometimes they set it to accompany the audio (so if the audio is jpn, the English subtitle will be tagged as jpn because it is paired with the jpn audio), it's really strange! Then more common ones are when the releaser forgets to set the "forced" flag for an English subtitle with English audio, it's a tiny mistake for them but huge for any logic trying to interpret it.
It is the main reason why the transcode folder is so essential. If a file is being unpredictable just go into the transcode folder and pick whichever language combo you want regardless of priority settings.

squadjot, with the GUI you're right that it should explain it more clearly and we should make a new interface for it, I have one in mind (along with other GUI enhancements I've already written) so it will get easier for new users to set in the future. I know that I had a learning curve understanding the subtitle priority stuff back when I was a user of PMS.

[squadjot]

I'm sorry , can't but argue..

I feel i'm well aware of the many scenarios, also that tracks can be untagged, tagged wrong etc etc.

EXACTLY why i think "blankline/prioritize external SRTs" would be perfect. It's a fallback-everybody-knows routine.
A scenario that would truly suit most people.

So..you're english user, and want subs off (if english)..THEN you have a special need..THEN you need to read up on sub/lang priority and use

Code: Select all

eng,off

Or if you're ExSport and needs to build a rocket, then you use whatever crazy priorities you'd want.

Imo "blankline/prioritize external SRTs" - would make it very simple and without loosing functionality. (Also this would be coherent with how PMS worked)

[ExSport]

I'm exaggerating when I'm trying to explain something so don't take everything exactly as it is written
But sure, I expect to play embedded subs which corresponds with my preference instead of loading external subs violating my preference set. Nothing more, nothing less.
@SubJunk: What I remember, there was "loc" used for audio and subs, depending on GUI language set, so setting "loc,off" corresponded with language of GUI. This was removed because it was buggy what I remember I want to say, whatever language is set in GUI, still default "eng,off;*,eng;*,und" is used.
@squadjot: I agree that lot of people don't know what it is UND, how the logic works because I described it many times in forums when novice users asked for it (because of that this: https://code.google.com/p/pms-exsport/wiki/FAQ). There are so many changes that maintaining some manual or documentation is quite hard
There were also tries to make audio/subs blank or "*,*" but both were buggy so later were removed. E.g. setting "*,*" as default so if it was empty, anyway "*,*" was used, it leaded to ignoring separate audio and sub preference because all the time first track of audio and subs were forced because it applied to *,* = play any audio with any subs. So I think defaults used right now are much better but there are still place to make it better, e.g. using again loc,off etc. Loc as Locale, depending on GUI set. But again, now noone understand what is UND (in Transcode folder audio/subs are displayed as UNDetermined so someone realize what is UND) so with LOC it will be worse
Last thing. I never spotted that all PC players loads external subs by default as preferred ones. So I will never understand the logic (if it will not be described somewhere in docs), that if I put external subs to movie folder, they will be loaded automatically. But I am not much movie guru on PC, I am using PC for work in most cases
But I am IT tech so I am not novice on PC

[SubJunk]

squadjot, the reason leaving it blank is no good for most users is that in the last couple of years, release groups have been including internal English subtitles in their English HDTV, Blu-Ray and WEB-DL rips, and leaving it blank means those subtitles are displayed when 90%+ of our users do not want them. These are the most popular files on users' computers so we need to cater to this by default.